Why a lot of Relationship Experience does not Equate to a Happy Marriage - The Good Men Project
That is about the time it takes for me to meet a women of interest on Of course you will have more trouble without relationship experience. Some women care more about height than others, but since you want a i am 23 and no relationship experience, you are doing better than me. But inside, I feel like I'm not deserving of an attractive girl. I constantly tell myself that an attractive woman wouldn't be interested in me--she's.
Not every outcome can be known and some things can be missed or ruined by too much research or being hesitant. Then bring that perspective to bear on your relationship concerns. If you're at some level entering every single encounter with a woman expecting that it might in one fell swoop be your first date and first kiss and first love and first intimacy and first sex.
I can totally see chickening out of that at the last minute, or standing aside and waving some other guy in. You're doing that rope-climbing thing where you look all the way up at the top of the rope, when you're really just supposed to focus on the next foot you have to climb.
For that reason, I really like safetyfork's idea of focusing on incremental low-stakes goals at first, even in the realm of relationships. Seems like people just pick someone nearby that they kind of like, then focus on getting into some sort of interaction, THEN focus on getting to hand-holding, and only THEN think about maybe a kiss, etc. What if you put sex or even making out off the table altogether for now, and just set yourself the immediate goal of getting a woman one-on-one in some sort of romantic context?
Then, when that goes well, maybe try to repeat it with someone else you like, and so forth, and then after a month or so you won't be the guy who's never been on a date or kissed or had sex, you'll be the guy who's been on several dates but has never kissed anyone or had sex. At which point, raise the bar, rinse, repeat. But yeah, it's tough to phrase it like that, especially since you're risk-averse - I'm the same way when it comes to women.
That's why I tend to prefer dating with strangers, where it doesn't matter as much if the date turns out to be a disaster or you are rejected. Also, have you tried dating websites? Everyone's there for the same reason, so no one's going to beat around the bush - If they are into you you will know right away, and vice versa.
It would allow you to start up a friendship through the net since you said you would prefer dating friends to complete strangersand you both can proceed at your own leisure before you feel comfortable enough to meet.
You can also bring up the fact that you're not experienced if you want, so you can specifically target women who would be okay with that. Nobody likes rejection, but you need to get to a stage where the potential for rejection is not a referendum on your self-worth. I would suggest Rejection Therapy. Second of all, were I you I would seriously look at online dating simply because it removes the ambiguity - it isn't called Online Friends. Sure some people become friends after a date, but the default setting is Not Friend Zone.
It would also give you some more experience, both with rejection online dating is a numbers game and with actual dates - having coffee wit someone is actually pretty low stakes. I wouldn't worry about being freaked out by really aggressive, and particularly aggressive and drunk, women.
When what you're looking for is fundamental driving lessons and what someone is offering is "drive around the track in my Ferrari, baby! I would - that's way too much way too fast. You need to acquire skills and confidence incrementally. I get where you are coming from, but really man, you're taking this all too seriously and doing yourself a disservice.
I think you need to get laid without any emotional strings. Get that "virgin" thing out of the way and I think you'll be in a better stance to start the sort of relationship you want. Nor should you be. However, guys who say this are pretty consistently You've never actually dated anyone, so you don't have any idea what those standards mean, and its very hard to tell if someone is right for you until you've had some experience with the wrong people.
Dating is, in many ways, a series of negotiations, and you sound like you might be acting in bad faith. The whole relationship thing is meant to be enjoyable, it doesn't sound like you expect to enjoy it too much if you want to just get it done so you can tick a box. You don't have to conform to an arbitrary social norm however pervasive it may be if you don't actually want to. Here's something a little more practical: I know you flippantly suggested saying 'how about we fuck' If you start asking girls out when you think there may be interest, you will almost certainly be rebuffed a few times.
But your success rate now is a big whopping zero percent, so screw it.
Little To No Relationship Experience?
That is all you need to do. Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, etc. I can tell he's interested in me, but I have NO interest in or attraction to him. It isn't his physical looks, it's that he has no idea how to stimulate another person emotionally or physically especially emotionally because he completely lacks experience.
Me, being an attractive, nice, intelligent, etc person I have options and really will probably never be attracted to him, unless I suddenly have no options. What I would advise N is this: Trying to get closer to your single female friends is really unlikely to bear fruit. It's true for most people Maybe in college, unlikely with inexperienced 30 year olds. Don't waste your time thinking about or aiming for the impossible.
To get a hit, or multiple hits, you really need to go where the chances are better, and have the bravery to show your imperfect self to lots of people.Little To No Relationship Experience?
Don't try to fit your round peg into square holes. Women of all shapes and sizes. Push your attractiveness boundaries. Tentatively and ineffectively approaching one woman for months like N did with me is just such a giant waste of time.
You need to not fear rejection and have the goal of getting some experience, if you so choose. It's what I would tell N to do. Do it ethically and honestly, but aim to build up your confidence. Realize that there will be lots of rejection and it's not the woman you choose who will want you and sleep with you - it's that 1 woman in who is drawn to you for a random and inexplicable reason. Dating isn't like that for you because you're broken or inexperienced. It's like that for everyone. I am attractive, and the guy I've had my eyes on and liked has not liked me back ever.
Dating, for me, means bracing myself for rejection and getting out there to find a match for a random and inexplicable reason. In the process, building up my skills and attractiveness so that maybe connections will be more frequent rather than less or more lasting rather than less. Don't fear the short term, the numbers game, and the imperfection. Finding real lasting romance and love can come after that. They are skilled at working with novices in a caring and nonjudgmental way, both on "the mechanics" of how to kiss, touch, etc.
I'm thinking that it might help to become more attuned to your body, especially given your recent impressive weight loss. You will have your first date. Eventually you'll have your first kiss. Some time after that, you may have your first girlfriend and your first sex. You really need somebody to show you the ropes - but there are two distinct sets of ropes. The first is about having sex for the first time - and hence removing that elephant from the living room.
The second is how to have further, longer term, relationships with women - which is actually more important. You could look around on-line would be a good place for a woman who was willing to to work with you on the first problem - and then consider seeing how things turn out after that for a possible deeper relationship.
But how things would end up would be a big unknown for her and you - I think many potential partners would be put off by that proposition. My guess is that, while you may feel you are an extreme outlier - sex coaches deal with people like you regularly. So sort out the sex, the body language and the anxiety first - then get dating. On the specifics of how to behave on dates I would recommend having a look at " Would like to meet " - old BBC series. Look at what the "expert panel" advise for their various subjects and see if any of that could apply to you.
This makes me wonder if you give people a chance--a chance to get over their nerves or awkwardness and share what's authentically interesting about themselves, and a chance to become attractive to you. You may be setting your sights too high, expecting perfection when you don't have perfection to offer.
Imagine a woman saying she has strict standards and would never go out with a man with no experience, or who is still 30 pounds overweight. Everyone has their own M. Sure sometimes you'll screw up, but that happens with everyone.
It honestly sounds like you're so concerned about being rejected or looking silly that you've opted to do nothing instead; but guess what, that leads to the same outcome: Stop treating every woman you meet like a potential first everything. Stop hanging out with women as friends hoping that they'll magically get that you're into them.
Yeah it's going to be anxiety inducing but that's part of the fun: Honestly, I'd focus on the relationship side before the sex stuff. If you have an understanding partner and you're willing to listen to what she tells you, sex will be easy enough to manage though awkward at first.
Try online dating to go on a few low stakes dates. Ask out the girl you like you'll probably be awkwardly blunt here and that's OK.
Stop coming up with reasons not to do it and dive in.
How I Feel About Being 20 With No Relationship Experience Whatsoever | Thought Catalog
However, it dawned on me that in this aspect of your life you are, from a development perspective, still a teenager. That may mean you should also expect, and be ready for, some of the other things that bedevil teenagers, including inappropriate crushes, confusing sex with love, etc. For this reason alone it would be helpful to have a sounding board as you navigate these new waters. So here's what you do.
Since this probably happens to you every once in awhile, take the next woman up on this. You're very hung up on being inexperienced, but inexperience doesn't always equal bad.
I think you think it's way more complicated than it is, especially kissing. Kissing takes about 15 minutes to get right, especially if you're aware of what your partner likes. Sex takes longer, but it's about listening and paying attention to what she likes and what you like, and what's good for one partner isn't always what's good for another, but the basics are the basics. Overall, being scared of kissing and sex is going to be the biggest turn-off. Once you get the idea out of your head that you need a Master's-level course in the art of seduction to be worthy of a sexual partner, you'll be much closer to having a dating life.
For example, for a period of time I was rock climbing with a group of friends, despite being unathletic and afraid of heights. Directly confronting this phobia and the more nebulous sense of "I can't do sports" for hours a week had a huge effect on my confidence in other, completely unrelated areas of my life.
When I met my future wife during this period, I found that I didn't need to think about how to be act confident -- I simply was confident, and everything just progressed spontaneously and easily. Worrying about some idea of a "friendzone" is only going to make you more self-conscious, as is worrying about your virginity.
More strategizing and rumination about your behavior is only going to make the problem of self-consciousness worse. Getting more comfortable with yourself, and with taking risks in general, is going to help get you get out of your head here.
Now forgive me for possibly overanalysing your choice of words, but since written language is all that's on display here, I find the way you choose to express yourself on this very interesting and perhaps a clue in itself - for instance: What I notice very clearly here is your use of the passive and impersonal - "an emotion that is so widely discussed, written about, desired, and craved" You are posting this, but you don't sound a bit like you actually desire and crave a sexual relationship with a woman, the sex in itself or the emotional connection and all that.
You say you are "concerned" about your development being "deficient". This is language that sounds very unemotional for such an intimate issue. It goes through your whole post, this sort of emotional distance and remove. This and your list of qualities and the fact you clarify you're happy enough alone and the list of caveats and "high standards" Do you feel that? How do you feel it?
Because that's where everybody starts from, at 12 or 18 or 25 or whatever age It sounds like you're treating this in a "clinical" way, in a way that removes all your own personal feelings and desires from the equation.
Maybe it's just your choice of words in posting on a public forum. Again apologies for possibly overanlysing language and repeating myself - writing this quickly off the top of my head.
But you have written a lot and it sounds like you thought about it a lot, so if that reflects your approach to this "issue" that you want to "get past", well, I'd ponder a bit more on that approach first and foremost.
Open up a bit with yourself first, and ask yourself those questions about what you want, what you feel, what you crave for yourself - nevermind what others crave or notions of what "social development" should be.
I've known someone, a friend of a friend, who was a virgin up to his early 30s. He'd never had a girlfriend, relationship, kiss, nada. I remember he was an extremely polite guy, formal but friendly, sort of "old style gentleman" almost, easy going enough with his mates and well liked by them, successful in school and then work, he just had this sort of hang up about women or something, I don't know.
He wasn't really shy or insecure. He was perhaps a bit too precise and fastidious I guess, at least based on other things about him, the way he dressed, that kind of thing - not in an unpleasant way, but you could see this was not the sort of guy who'd gone through the classic teenage experiences of getting awfully drunk, or stoned, or smashed at least a couple of times; it wasn't the kind of guy who'd have a crush on a celebrity or singer or actress; or gone through being a heavy metal fan or discovering punk and getting matching hairdo and clothes etc.
You'd get the impression he wasn't the type to just "let go". Then, when he moved out and away from where he'd been born and grew up in, he got a better job and met a lot more people and maybe had the chance to become a bit of a different person or at least unlock something that was a bit too contained before.
I am only guessing. But basically he had a series of long term relationship including living together with the girlfriend of the time. Anyhow, last I saw him - with the girlfriend - the change was noticeable even in his appearance and it wasn't just the years - he'd put on a bit of weight, looked a lot more relaxed, had the same politeness and formality about him, but in a way that looked a lot more comfortable and at ease, like, mellower.
And in a way that gave the impression he really is interested in other people. And in his girlfriend in particular. I don't know or care! He somehow got out of his own "box" and made himself and someone else happier. Whichever path he took to get there, I think that is the primary impulse - openness, risk taking, genuine interest.
Number one is that if you are feeling anxious or unhappy about something, that's all the reason you need to chat with a therapist.
Unless you get head into a happier place, I don't think the rest will follow. Number two is I kind of agree with the person above who pointed out that although you say it's not about the virginity, it comes across pretty clearly that it is indeed about the virginity. There's nothing wrong in my book with visiting a competent and professional sex worker ideally in a legal setting, as in this ask-me-anything on Reddit; that person says she even gives discounts to first-timers to get the first time out of the way, and then move on to dealing with all the relationship questions separately.
Wear a condom, and just say you had a "one night stand" if you ever need to say anything. As a side-note, though, your use of "hooker" instead of something more neutral like sex worker is kind of like your use of "girls" and your odd emphasis on "high standards" -- taken all together, it isn't exactly a glowing expression of respect for women, you know? If some aspect of this is coming across in person, it might explain some of your problems; a dispassionate outside observer could hopefully see if this is the case and suggest alternative ways of handling things.
Which gets me to number three. There have been several FPPs over the years on sexual surrogacythe controversial use of intimate contact for therapeutic goals. You don't need that, but you would be an outstanding candidate for a dating surrogacy service -- someone who could work you through various scripts and how-tos for everything from flirting to asking out to being on the date.
I'm know I've read about these kinds of dating acting coaches before, and if you could find one it would be money very well spent. But lastly, I'll just say straight up that this stuff is hard.
I don't care how many relationships you have had, it is still hard to figure out whether someone likes you, whether or not it is appropriate to ask someone out, and what to do when you get there.
I think it's a lot more about being willing to put yourself out there and risk rejection including setting up situations where things are clear enough -- "Would you like to go on a date with me?
It will give you more confidence. Have high expectations for who you'll be in a relationship with, but low expectations for who you'll go on a first date with. By focusing so much on this end goal - and attributing such disproportionate importance to it - you create a lot of performance anxiety for yourself.
Personally, when I date, my focus is not on sex but on trying to get the other person to fall in love with me.
I think this is far more important because: Developing platonic attraction isn't that different, you know. It's OK when you're dating a woman to pull back and say "Sorry, I'm really attracted to you, but I just don't want to move too quickly. Hopefully this helps take the pressure off you, at least a little. Also, I don't recommend mentioning how inexperienced you are until after you're hooked up with somebody. When you do bring it up, I recommend just saying it is a mildly joking way, like "I'm not sure if you guessed this, but I'm a little inexperienced at this Ask them out on a date!
Or if you're already on a date, kiss them! But no one else can see inside your head, and plenty of people will be okay with it if you are not perfectly smooth. Risk aversion has to go. Not stupid risks or spectacular attention-grabbing moves, but not merely symbolic risks either.
You have to learn to evaluate and push through low-grade habitual fears that are pointlessly holding you back from things you want. Whenever you find yourself entertaining Othering beliefs about women, reject these beliefs and whoever fed them to you.
You're just dealing with people. This includes any dating advice you read that's based on a gender-vs-gender model of tricks and manipulation.
Even if such things get you laid, you'll have years of toxic thinking to wash out of your head after. Stop thinking of women as prizes go get, things a person deserves, etc. They're people you may or may not manage to connect with.
You're conflating "flirting", "asking out", "having a date", "kissing", "sleeping together", "being someone's boyfriend", "having a relationship", "being in love", etc. These are all different activities, especially in the mind of a 30yo. You're burdening each with all your ill-formed beliefs about the others.
This will not serve you well. Treat each event as its own event, that might be all you do with a given person. Swear off the "I'll just hang around and she'll get the idea" strategy.
- Why a lot of Relationship Experience does not Equate to a Happy Marriage
- How I Feel About Being 20 With No Relationship Experience Whatsoever
It doesn't work for anyone, men or women. People generally like direct signals, so long as they're delivered with tact. Flirting is just "direct signals" condensed to a subtle and tactful enough level that they're deniable by each party.
There are explanations elsewhere, but it's a simple language that's pretty unambiguous once you can hear and speak it. Forget your damn "standards". They're part of your bi-modal self-image, it's pure self-absorption.
You swing between speaking highly of yourself and trash-talking yourself. This is a strategy to avoid reality in favour of fantasy: You're a guy who wants more connection than he's had. So go work on connecting more. That's an activity and you've a clearly-stated desire to to do more of it.
Activities happen in reality; standards and judgments about self and others happen in your head. When you get around to a part with physical mechanics you don't really know, the phrase you're looking for is "I'm a little new to all this". Everyone's new at some point. Just admit it and let her show you what she's into.
You'll probably get it wrong a few times anyways extra reason why your standards don't, at this point, matter much. You can figure out what you're into later. This is what I generally do, but it seems almost counter-productive. In that situation, I don't know if she's hanging out with me because she's interested in me, or because she just doesn't have anything better going on and wants to hang out.
There's so much ambiguity in "hanging out. I get that same, weird feeling--the mix of anxiety, embarrassment, and shyness. It's like a small child being caught somewhere they're not supposed to be. I feel like I have no place in the dating world--it's a completely foreign environment for me.
More responses to follow, later. I shit you not the first time I ever asked anyone out, I got so lightheaded I almost fainted. I walked into a display cabinet at the department store she was working in. And, yet, I rode through it being rather giddy at the fact that a I actually had the balls to do this and b she said 'yes.
You can either spend your time thinking about how weird it all is and how hard and how you can't bear to do it, or you can use that time to convince yourself that no matter how poorly it goes, you will not explode, no one will ridicule you, no one will hit you, and the rejection will be mercifully quick and to the point. This is what it feels like until you dive in. I was a late bloomer like you, and honestly felt like a little girl, absolutely out of place among adults with sexualities.
The only way out of this was to put myself out there regardless, ignore that feeling, and allow myself to feel vulnerable. A lot of people are mentioning sex therapy and hiring a sex worker, etc, but that seems kind of counter-intuitive.
You don't want to feel like you have to perform some special transaction or hire an expert just to do what you're trying to make feel natural for yourself. For relationship experience to count, we have to be active learners. We have to be conscious observers and turn off the autopilot. Some people learn from experiences and get better. Others learn bad behaviors and repeat them in every relationship. To learn from a healthy relationship, stay away from toxic people.
Often times those lessons are about ourselves. The way to make it count is to act on your new knowledge. Fill in the gaps to make yourself better for your current or next relationship.
Getting some sexual experience, learning to communicate, set boundaries, and gaining clarity on who and what you want in a relationship can all contribute to a better marriage. Some people may go through more experiences to absorb the same lessons. Prepare Yourself for a Loving Relationship People make plans for all sorts of things but often neglect their personal lives. Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad free Knowing a few stats can help make a better plan. So can experiencing multiple relationships or focusing on a few, high quality romances.
Either way, learning from our experiences while growing into a better person is going to have the biggest effect. Understand the Reality of Relationships A lot of people run on autopilot and make no effort to learn what it takes to have a successful marriage. Recognize the differences between men and women to better understand sexual polarity, attraction, and our different needs. Pay attention to your relationships and build the skills you need for the long run.
Be a student of life for the best results. This is one area where dating multiple partners can pay off.
What a lot of people do is settle for whomever gives them some attention. Expand your options so you can pick the right person for you. For one, it takes years to really get to know someone. All sorts of things will boil to the surface after spending years with an individual.
Second, waiting a few years can teach you how to navigate a relationship. This finding probably comes as no surprise, but it should stand as a warning to those who are eager to get married right away. We can learn important lessons by sticking with the same person. Commit to Personal Growth Probably the most important factor of all.